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Difference in Hulls available
Hi all
Was wondering if anyone could comment regarding the various options available re builders of 125s and what the differences are in their hull shapes etc. I understand that hulls from "Mad Cow" moulds are quite numerous and desireable, but apart from them being sailed by a very good sailor to win numerous titles I am unsure as to why they would be faster than any other hull/builders product.Also interested in comments regarding other builders ie YMS in SA and whoever is building the QLD boats that seem to be winning alot in the past few years...
Andy13-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
When GRP construction was permitted there was considerable development work to make the right decisions. It was recognised that certain changes would be needed but it was necessary to keep the timber boats competitive and performance identical as near as practical. Only female moulded boats were envisaged. Little was known about the foam panel on a male jig system.
The high cost of the female mould is relevant and the opportunity was taken by the National body to put an end to the perceived performance enhancements with playing the tolerances on timber hulls. An official plug was commissioned by the National body and all moulds were to be taken from this plug. This was written into the Constitution, and is still there. This plug is in the control of the Victorian Division.
Eventually it was envisaged that all 125's would have the same wetted surface shape and with the gradual change from timber construction to GRP, the hull variation problems would disappear.
Unfortunately this was sunk by the introduction (ignoring the Constitution) by the building of foam panel hulls. I believe that this only occured by restrictive conditions being placed on the use of the National Plug to make a mould in Queensland. It was cheaper/easier to go the foam panel road - to hell with the rules, make enough boats and get them changed!
The inevitable happened and the rash of foam panel boats in states the did not have a female mould continued the tolerance play that had caused problems with timber boats (heard of Flying A in NSW?). Looked at the transom curve on a WA hull? Seen a longer water line bow on a NSW foam panel hull - it just goes on and on.
Victoria then compounded the problem by making a new mould. No not from the Association plug, but from a perceived faster hull shape. What about the Constitution - o' well the foam panel hulls were accepted so lets do the same and ignore the "wise men's rules".
Now we have 4 female moulds (1 SA & 1 Vic identical, 2 extra Vic of different shapes) and an unknown number of male frames which have been admitted to having the shapes "twitched" utilising the unofficial plus or minus 10mm on fit of patterns?

How do I answer your question of where to get a hull made.
The 125 is a very easily driven hull and in my opinion the various "shapes" do little for performance enhancement. The main thing is a rigid bottom with a fair shape.
The "nut on the tiller" is by far the most important.

For longlevity a professionally built female moulded hull is best. Shop around for the best price/finish relationship. It is not easy to build a 125 hull (including all fittings) to minimum weight. Discuss this with the builder. Likewise consider the cost of delivery to where you live.
Phone numbers of female mould builders are:-
SA - Andrew Baker (08) 8242 6777
Vic - Jim Scott 0409 151 121
Vic - Robert McQuade 0413 185 898

Don Barnett - SA
Don Barnett16-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
the other Victorian moulds that don refers to are the mad cow mould which was taken off Jamie Thompsons ply wood boat that won the nationals and Jims Scorpion mould which is very similar to the mad cow mould.

The YMS mould and Botteril moulds are also very similar/ the same.

nick16-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
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QaaHjeSIYT16-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Andrew
This post has bee Temporarily deleted. Please no Personal attacks on this forum.

Regards
Grant Steinback
QLD Moderator
Andrew Foster17-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Duly noted administrator.
Don Barnett is making comment on boats that he has never laid a measuring tape on. Being the son of the person who made Flying-A
and one of the sailors who has achieved success on this boat I am extremely angry that its reputation is still being slandered some 20 years after it was built. I am all for "open slather" on the discussion board but to let this comment pass while others
are held back is a joke. Let it rest mate, if you saw Flying-A in action you would know why it was so successful. The truth is the only illegal part on the boat was the inner gunwhale coaming did not continue to the transom. This was immdiately rectified (1988). In 1992 we were told that the seat tops did not conform to the builing patterns. At this stage the patterns were not used to measure the boat. However, we were asked to change them before the next nationals. We made the repairs over winter. It turned out to be a benefit as it allowed more room for the crew to move in the boat. (Note that we were asked to change something and we did before the next titles)
As it turns out boats made in a female mould have to come from a mould that has been produced from the associaion plug. A male mould allows home builders to build a cheap boat. Nothing in the constitution prevents you from making a hull over a male mould. I agree with Barney in weighing up your options. One other thing to consider is whether the boat you are buying actually measures.
Andrew Foster
SLMASC
NSW


Andrew Foster17-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
To answer your question Mick. yeah people do still play around with rocker lines and bows. not wanting to bag the botterils/ yms boats they have a fairly flat rocker which humps at the back of the case. where as the mad cows (read scorpions also) are a lot flatter aft of the front bulkhead.

personally i think the botterils are fine upwind the newer boats are quicker off the breeze.

The Botterils did well in there era because they were the first glass boats and were a lot stiffer than the timber boats.

All the second generation glass boats ie chillouts (nsw male moulded boats) mad cows scorpions and the queensland boats are have similar rocker lines.
nick17-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
What Don Barnett has said is a good history lesson on what the National NEC was trying to do.

The shape will help a bit but its the person who controls the boat, not so much the skipper who makes the most difference.

GRP boats are stiffer so they should go faster.

Flying A had the seat tanks further in to make the boat stiffer, but they were replaced with conventional ones.

Queensland has always been a strong state for home built boats, the warmer weather helps. Building a home built boat in an place like Victoria is not so practical, too cold, brr.

Playing around with the rocker may have happened in the past but not so much now as the boats are made of GRP from a female or male mould, you need to compromise between flat boat for strong winds, flat water against light winds, rougher water.

Queensland has only won 2 national titles in 5 years. Chris has been doing alot of sailing in the past so lots of practice. A good boat helps but you need practice and I guess an ounce of luck to win an Australian title.

I would try and source a boat from your local state, that would be easier.
Web17-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
hi all

andy foster is correct in what he said.... building of a male jig is easier and cheaper for an amature builder...

small tolerances in hull shapes have the POTENTIAL ONLY to have a very small advantage in some conditions but at the end of the day its got to do a lot with how u sail and set up your boat....

Web, QLD has won 3 out of the last 5 national titles and placed 2nd and 3rd at other 2 while still filling the majority of the top ten.... but you are right plenty of sailing has been done by those people to get those results.

over the years we've worked very hard with North Sails here in Brisbane to develop our rig and sails to somewhere where we think they should be... if u start with a stiff light hull and work hard at getting your sails and skills up to speed...... anyone is hard to beat...

whatever u decide go with something your comfortable with.... espically if u build it yourself..... after all it's half the fun building it!!

good luck
chris ando
Chris Ando17-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Andy,
The Mad Cow mould came off a pretty standard plywood boat.
What you have to be careful of with a 'stitch and glue' build is to minimise the rocker. Care must be taken to eliminate any humps in the keel line, keep the main bulkhead to minimum width and keep the ends pressed down. The bow just ends up where it lays.
Mad Cow was the last plywood boat to beat the foam boats, moulded and male jigged, showing it's not ALL about the stiffness. The boat must be well built and not too round in the rocker.
The shape has won 5 out of the last ten nationals, and been second in two more.
But yes, same with anyone who placed well at the nationals, it's alot more to do with how they are sailed, rigs, and an ounce of good fortune, or lack of misfortune.
Flying A doesn't look too strange to me. I'm sure it was just very well sailed.

Nick is right..many of the newer boats have very similar shapes.
Work is being done right now to try to tighten the tolerances so we don't see any radical departures that would lessen the resale value of the current boats.

Exciting news is that the Mad Cow mould is now in China and the first shipment of 6 will be arriving in January.
An influx of new hulls at a slightly better price will hopefully have great effects on the fleet with other good boats being filtered down as people upgrade to new hulls.
Robert McQuade has put a lot of personal time, effort and expense in to this project with minimal return to himself....just having the (healthy) future of the class as his main objective.

It is not difficult to build a foam boat down to weight...but care must be taken.
It is difficult to build a ply boat down to weight, but it can be done with a lot of care.

Yes, rigs and sails are another part of the equation and my rig concept strangely gets ignored by most people looking for the answers...(!)
Jamie Thomson17-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
I agree with Jamie and Chris buy a good boat and spend you time on the rig, after all it is the engine on the boat. Jamie's rig set up flies in the face of everything I have learnt. But it sure does look good when he sails right past and into oblivion. Do the research think outside the square and have a look at the boats that are winning. Don't be stubborn like me take on new ideas.

When you have done this practice like "MAD".
andrew foster18-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
interesting discussion. What boat are you sailing Andrew? are you sailing kirwins boat Jamie? or yours?

im sailing envy 3063 (timber boat)
Nick18-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Don

I find your remarks regarding Flying A highly offensive, and indicative of your ingnorance of the events that surrounded that boat. The success of Flying A was 100% down to the skill and committment of its sailors and had nothing to do with its shape or construction, which by the way is very conventional.

I remember just prior to the 1992/93 nationals riding my bike along the bush track at the end of sunshine park watching Michael and Andrew practicing their kite launches and drops, it was an absolutely amasing thing to see, one second the kite was there and set, the next it wasn't, you barely saw it go up or down and you never saw it flap ever. In the eight national titles I have attended since I have never seen such amasing kite handling ever. Not from Jamie, Chris or anyone. Michael Eaton is one of the best sailors that this class has ever seen and will ever see. To degrade his achievments based on hearsay and rumours is a travesty.

I feel it nessicery to point out that when the boat of the Victorian who led the witch hunt against Flying A was measured at the request of Flying A's owner, it failed to measure in the same way Flying A did, along with a whole bunch of other boats in the fleet.

The attacks on Flying A in Brisbane were unfair, the attacks in Melbourne were a downright disgrace, as was the vendetta that was carried out against me in Adelaide.
Damian Wright18-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
I find this topic of great interest and I think that everyone often misses the point about the nut on the tiller. Many years ago I read Bertrams book on Australia 11 (re-read many times) and one of the most crucial points that came out of this book was the power that psychology has on performance. That is, if everyone believes a boat is faster because of some technological advantage, then they can't beat that boat. The Americans were spooked because they believed that Aust 11 had a magic formula with the winged keel and therefore were beaten psychologically. Bertram himself was convinced that Aust 11 was not a faster boat. It was all in the training, tuning and in the belief that you can win.

Therefore I think that some 125ers place too much importance on boat fiddling (hull shape) and lose sight of the other ingredients to superior performance such as practice, mental preparation, boat tuning, venue analysis and believing that you can win.

Though, I do believe in a one design class which should be preserved only if it keeps cost of construction down and doesn't diminish the resale value of existing boats. But to be a true one design class, we have to sail lasers (boo hoo), and because a 125 is not so strictly one design (and constructed) then we have to put up with minor variations in a home constructed boat.

So when measurers get together to decide on changes to the class, this should only be done with the long term interests of the class at heart. Why doesn't the national association do some research and measure all the top 20 boats (including timber) and look at limiting measurement tolerances over an average and then stick to them. This is the only sensible solution and it stops all the bickering.

Merry Christmas to you all and good luck at the Nationals - don't forget to have a great time.

Derek Miles
Derek Miles19-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Thanks Derek..and that's exactly the kind of thing we are in the process of right now .
A proposal has been put forward, much discussion taken place and i'm sure there will be plenty of measuring at the nationals to get that consensus right.

By the way...it's Bertrand..
jamie thomson19-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Well said Derek I could not agree more.

As state measurer it is my belief that any measuring for the consensus will be done at the discretion of the boat owner and not be done by me on measuring day.

So stop licking your lips all you trouble makers.


andrew19-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Thanks Jamie for the spelling correction. Another idea is to let all 125ers know what the outcome of your research and findings is after the nationals.
Derek
Derek Miles19-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
yes Andrew,
I think the measuring/comparisons would much better be done on another day than measuring day!
jamie thomson19-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Andy
Thanks for the suggestion - the past champions are located in the Results section
Graham Brown19-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
Thanks for the list of past national champions.
Qld has won 2 of the last 5.

2003 Mad Cow 3072 Vic
2004 MMMad Cow 3131 Vic
2005 She Waits For No Man 3082 Qld
2006 Slow Boat 3140 Vic
2007 Waterloo 3121 Qld

Maybe I have been sailing 125s for too long; when I last got the boat measured the only measurement I was most interested in was the rocker. It was 35.

Thanks for the discussion and the replies.
Web22-Dec-2007    Edit    Delete 
Re: Difference in Hulls available
I can certainly support the crew experience and rig tuning component for performance. Obviously a stiff fair shaped hull will help but as an example -

A local club race immediately off the start, fairly windy, sees Jamie T 3140 sandwiched between me to windward 3133 and James Robinson 3130 to leeward. All the same hulls yet Jamie drops back sails under James R and proceeds to sail away from both of us.

Jamie's sailing and tuning skill there to see, and James R and I continued to battle neck and neck, so we hadn't slowed down.

The one and only time I have been sorely tempted to try out mid boom sheeting, but I'm too old a dog now to change!

So get a reasonable hull, tune your rig and sail your bums off.

Oh and by the way, I was that poor Nat. measurer in 1990 at Chelsea that took the brunt of the Flying A saga measurement crap. What a sorry state of affairs the whole fiasco was! And just for someone to try and prove a point that I think was never really proven.

But it did lead into review of the build rules and helped change which is good for the class.

Fair sailing!
steve low12-Feb-2008    Edit    Delete 

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